That was pretty much the last straw for me. This one may sound like ad hominem at first blush, but I mean it more as an observation of the . which is really funny because in my experience, the Lutheran church never ever mentions either of those things. I would more readily believe it of idiots like Mahaney, but, again, no one is infallible. I will not monopolize the conversation..I apologize for my run on posts. As leader of the Anti-Revolutionary Party in the Netherlands he served as Prime Minister of his country from 1901 to 1905. I kept a notebook, carefully writing all of the arguments in favor of Calvinism. I dont believe that this is the scenario that Jesus presented to his disciples. She discussed the abuse that she has been subjected to in her life. Canada ON - Waterloo. Im sure there are believers in every venue. I may post a little bit of my testimony and how I came to by position of being a non calvinist but for now just wanted to say thanks for this post and for all that you 2 do and for Wade as well and e-church! To derive strength from and grow like a shoot from a huge old oak tree. 8. As a woman in ministry you represent the focus of much of the Neo-Calvinist YRR contempt, and when you overcome that evil with good, then Jesus is visible. And thanks for your honest answers. German-American theologian and philosopher Paul Tillich is remembered for his work in the field of Christian existentialism and for concepts such as the method of correlation. Its sobering that these are the very things that will be withheld from me in many church settings because doing is reflexively conflated with striving and I need to learn to rest in Daddy/Mummy Gods unconditional love. And as someone suggested, what is sometimes passed off as Calvinism is actually so-called hyper-Calvinism and my theological dictionary suggests its hard sometimes to tell the difference in some hyper-Calvinist writers. Let me backtrack. Now I have a place to send the Calvin debates and can keep the other threads relatively Calvin debate-free. Do not expect to win the argument, no matter how logical and "winsome" you are. Hmm Apostles and Nicene, indeedy-do. Otherwise, you get dismissed as a hayseed rube who is barely literate and not qualified to question Calvinism. Unless I either stop believing what I think is true or shut up about it, it seems I will forever put in a box of this nonsense, unloving idea that God is the author of evil and we are mindless automatons. Number 3 on the list is "use of the ESV Study Bible.". It is not love to push Calvin. CALVIN! . As I was leaving Dallas, a man I did not know well approached me in church and said he wanted to correct something I had said. Green 27. I get called an Arminian routinelyLOL, I dont even know anything about Arminianism. Would you drink a glass of water with just a little flesh eating bacteria in it? Bridget, would you mind documenting instances of this, if its not too much trouble, because I would be very interested in knowing if any of these people would make such a basic mistake about the concept of Total Depravity. And those who might still reject it, might also be rejecting it for the wrong reasons and miss out on some important wrestling that could help them grow. Of course the bewildered question of why didnt God? will inevitably come up. ), but if taken to its logical outcomes, yes, at the end of the day, Cal really does teach X. I would disagree that anyone on TWWand I have been reading here a long timehas misrepresented Calvinism. Yes, I believe that what were on earth mainly to do is bring glory to God, and our salvation and love for others is a part of that. They may, and most probably do, differ on other areas of theology but at least in soteriology, they do not hold to what is commonly known as the Doctrines of Grace or TULIP. It needs to be dealt with directly and honestly, a complicated complex mature topic. Jeff as the saying goes: may all your tribes increase. He said I was wrong. @ Arce: c) I want to move conversations about abuse beyond the Calvinism discussion because I think its a massive red herring. Or maybe a better example would be if someone said The practice of withholding baptism from infants is evil, Im sure people would rush to defend their position. Yet Calvin (and Luther Im Lutheran) were fallible and sometimes very sinful men. Does it say milk of the word? That sounds contradictory to the importance that many place on the word. Breastmilk tested at 1 year postpartum is different than breastmilk at 6 months postpartum, etc. In fact, I've heard him preach stuff that would set Calvinists' hair (and beards) on fire. I am sure that I didn't pray correctly. I am sorry that you feel this way, because it does sound like you just want an open field assault on Calvinism and for Calvinists to hold their tongue. However, they are limited, just as we are. I will say that as a fairly new Lutheran, I have REALLY been blessed by the attitude that as a woman, I am relating directly to Christ and am responsible for my own theology. I will say they are much more composed personalities. I Am a Christian - The first reason I'm not a Calvinist is that John Calvin was a man. He beat me to the punch. http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/reformed-theology/arminianism/calvinism-vs-arminianism-comparison-chart/, http://www.pbs.org/thisemotionallife/topic/happiness/helping-others, http://stopbaptistpredators.blogspot.com/2013/09/dont-mess-with-texas-baptists_2.html, http://www.stopbaptistpredators.org/ravagedfaith.html, In reply to forgiven-to-be-forgiving . Could the person have simply avoided it and gone to someplace else without even making the comment? Though its not nearly as esoteric and egghead as supralapsarianism vs. infralapsarianism. What about what God foreordained someone else to say that is different. It contains a list of 16 "behaviors" to look for when seeking to smoke out Calvinistic pastors. The Bible says they are. They cant seem to express their experience and pain without having a conversation with some authentic Calvinist/Reformer/Tulip believer (Whatever that means. for what its worth, im the product of many generations of energetic, committed Christian people, several career missionaries to asia, and church since day 1. And heres 2400+ pages of PROOF! And would appeal to organization freaks with OCD who crave To Be Absolutely Right? Ultimately, they could be reading an interpretation of an interpretation, adding their own along the way. Ive not tried to convince anyone to be a Calvinist. This was the feeling my wife and I got upon entering the world of neocalvinism in 2008. I cant get there either on the basis of the argument (I have heard it all and tried)., I get where you are coming from within your paradigm. He is a loving man in spite of the baloney flung his way. Olson coined the label "Pannenberg's Principle" forWolfhart Pannenberg's argument (1969) that God's deity is his rule "The divinity of God and the reign of God in the world are inseparable."[6]. I do believe that some brands have harmful elements that bring extra despair as if every day life doesnt bring enough. The hard part about this is I dont think these folks even realize what they are doing. Why would the Bible portray God in such a way (that isnt true) just to make a point? One reason is because I have gone through periods where I questioned Gods goodness because of certain events in my life and in those of others. (Putting it mildly!!!). Hes describing man, not God. What you describe is nothing like what I believe nor anyone I know believes. The article you listed included the following quote from Mohler:Mohler says the seminarys current prosperity is a sign of Gods blessing on an institution that rejected liberal trends in society and returned to more conservative social ideas. Toward that end, here are five Baptist theologians from the past I commend as must reading for every Baptist pastor. Nicholas what a great link. What makes anyone think that we are going to solve it in a Bible verse war? Many Christian Protestant denominations trace their roots to John Calvin and the reformation movement. Where we end, he begins. I really think that we have to go to Scripture with the intent of honestly, to the best of our ability, seeing what it says and submitting to its truth, instead of wanting it to confirm our beliefs. If, however, a viewpoint *in itself*, genuinely hurts someone, it is wrong. Can God repair things? Jesus wept. It is disingenuous for anyone to rebut the Calvinist doctrine that God is the author of sin unless this was a point where the WCF and Calvin disagreed (and I dont think it was). In addition to Dees remarks on unity, Id also like to add the following: we all accept the historic Christian creeds of the early church (Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian). (Mark 12:28-34, ESV). I looked into becoming a Calvinist years ago but did not see it in the Scripture, and I tried hard to do so. ++++++++++++. What scientists call the laws of nature we call normal operations of the sovereign God. Athanasian nope, that seems tove been written by someone (probably not Athanasius, by all accounts) barking up entirely the wrong end of the stick. Change), You are commenting using your Facebook account. I dont know that any of the venues get one closer to God than the others. Per PSA, I am pretty sure that that is the official stance of the Lutheran end of thingsbut I really shouldnt be talking about theories of the atonement because I havent studied them worth a hoot. Theology - Roger Olson, Jack Cottrell (restorationist inerrantist), Thomas Oden, Ergun Caner, Paige Patterson, Michael Brown Also, anything written by Satan Notthemama1984 Puritan Board Post-Graduate Nov 12, 2010 #7 I personally have no respect for Geisler. Am very sorry to read of your sils diagnosis. If I am doing good by sowing good wheat kernels and not tares, why would the Almighty want to stop me? He should be a great example to you. We are. We are only talking about it in this thread because someone brought it up as a challenge to Reformed theology. Or if they reject it because they think it teaches that God loves to abuse his children. Again, if it were a matter of someone, as I put it earlier, beating someone over the head with their beliefs, that would be different. They should not get to define theology that has been around much longer than them. That is biblical. HOWEVER- as is often the case, what we deal with in real life can be quite unlike what the experts say it is. And as you say, Nick, as soon as we have settled out of shock, we need robust physiotherapy which is psychotherapy or intensive spiritual counseling, and thats hard long work; not a job for babies. Norm Geisler: normangeisler.com William Lane Craig: Reasonable Faith.org J. Warner Wallace: ColdCaseChristianity.com John Lennox: John Lennox.org Greg Koukl: STR.org Paul Copan: PaulCopan.com Ed Feser: http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com / Lee Strobel: Lee Strobel.com Josh McDowell: Josh.org Paul Ellingworth William G. MacDonald James Strauss Philip Towner John Wenham Gary Habermas Nigel Turner Max Turner Peter Cotterell (?) I wont go into all of them. LOLGod works in mysterious and wonderful ways! There was a reason we (the US) put in a Constitutional Amendment to term limit the president. And our needs are met by taking ground and accomplishing; because we were robbed of our inheritance and starved of purpose and significance. We are very clear that we do not see men as the only abusers nor abuse inherently a gender issue. I want to say here that I dont think that God takes pleasure in these events and I dont think that God forces people to sin, even in their thoughts. With the Internet, you never know. When people have been hurt by something they have come to realize was wrong, they will present their disagreements with fervor. Wife (whose abusive first husband was one of the biggest drug dealers in the Midwest before she divorced him) was my Lamaze coach. Now.as to the flavor of Christian, Ill probably have you explain, if you mention something Im not familiar with or dont understand. It is only partly totally contaminated with leaven. It wasnt until they tried to recruit me to take an $85.00 course to learn to speak in tongues that I actually started studying my Bible. Man is completely helpless in his sinful state, is under the . Recently, I had a Calvinist who knowns me say that i was not a Christian by very fact that I write this blog and call out some of the people that he admires. Oy. Again, living in a 3 dimensional world, that makes little sense. Hes describing man, not God. However, when a woman has been abused for years by the men in her life, its going to be natural that she lashes out at men and not feel safe around them. My hubby got his first spiritual stirrings while watching a live performance of, Jesus Christ Superstar. We are not monolithic. Not that Im really doing this all that whole-heartedly. And what is an ocean but a multitude of single drops? He does not reject the Gospel, but he does reject predestination as presented by Calvin. The Calvinist thought process is: God has foreordained every word I say, therefore, I cannot be wrong. Does that make me not a Calvinist? We have a question for you? We each probably believe that the venue we hold to is the best and most accurate. The greatness of God must be understood in a different way because this construct caused harm so deep that it tore into the core of me and made me wish for eternal death. This is very important to get a true and not twisted idea of what Calvinism, in its purest form, is. Need I say that an airtight perfect system spanning 2400+ pages and written by a young lawyer smacks of know-it-all with a bit of OCD? I didnt say we should be satisfied with the milk of the word. I understand its maddening to shoot at a moving target. So Sad. Here is a quick bio on Olson from Wikipedia. whats wrong with mess anyway? Bring them to heaven? And on occasion theyll even claim to love you, and to be rebuking you for your own good in order to bring you back to a more Biblical perspective.
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